Talk:Compulsory sterilization

structure, the Netherlands vs switzerland, Czech Republic/Czechoslovakia

Actually, the Netherlands) doesn't actually practice Compulsory sterilization AT ALL, and never has. So it doesn't belong in this article, but out of respect I've moved it to the last section. I think it's wrong that they had their own section while the Czech Republic/Czechoslovakia and Switzerland actually DID practice Compulsory sterilization, but these were buried at the end. However, if we see the Spanish language version, Holland isn't even mentioned, which is why I suspect that the insertion of Holland is a case of vandalism since the information wasn't even true to begin with. A proposed temporary (two year) compulsory contraception is by no means equal to already enforced Compulsory Sterilization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CrashTestSmartie (talk • contribs) 10:26, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

End of practice

Last edit changed "...though sterilizations continued in a few states until the early 1960s." to "...though sterilizations continued in a few states until the late 1970s. " by anonymous user from IP 24.11.120.195. Is there a verifiable source for this change? --WCFrancis 23:11, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Everything I've seen says that statistically relevant numbers of sterilizations died out by the mid-1960s. The laws stayed on the books longer but were generally un-used. --Fastfission 16:46, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

I've changed the added text a bit to emphasize that though a few sterilizations were carried out until the present, for the most part they had ended by the mid-1960s (especially with the passing of Medicare legislation, which had strong consent policies for sterilizations for any state that took the money, if I recall correctly). The big periods for sterilizations were the 1930s and then some of the southern states in the 1950s and early 1960s. After that it is just a smattering of individual cases and not a concerted policy (whether it was ever terribly "concerted" out of a few states is up for debate as well, but that's more of a scholarly question than an encyclopedic one). We shouldn't give the wrong impression that large amounts of sterilizations continued until the present. I looked up the BMJ article and it is just a little news blurb, not much different from the other link posted. --Fastfission 16:52, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

You say the Medicare had "strong consent policies for sterilization..." What do you mean exactly? That it was opposed to them, or the reverse? I think the current formulation of the text does convey your idea that "statistically relevant numbers of sterilizations died out by the mid-1960s". Do you know where further info can be found concerning the individual and specific cases which continued later? Currently, the article states that the last one in Oklahoma was in 1981. And in other states? What's the treshold to become "statistically relevant"? (since I seem to have misunderstood you in the past, I'd like to add that in no way are those criticisms on a great - if sad - article, but only genuine interest in the matter). Regards, Lapaz 16:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

If I recall, in order to receive Medicare funding in your state the state must agree to sterilization only after informed consent (among other things). I'd have to look up the exact wording, though. As for the other places, I know that there are some books and news articles which discuss sterilizations post-1960s and even until the early 1980s, but as for "statistically relevant" I mean "numbers which indicate any sort of systematic trend or program." It isn't a totally rigorous formulation, though one could come up with something like that if they were pressed into it. It is my way of saying, "after the 1960s you don't see anything that looks like the sterilization programs before the 1960s; you have probably at max a 100 sterilizations in between 1965 and 1980, in comparison with the tens of thousands of sterilizations you have before then." The best source I know of for sterilization statistics is Robitscher, Jonas, ed. Eugenic Sterilization. Springfield, Ill.: Charles C. Thomas, 1973, which has a chapter at the end all about sterilization statistics in the U.S. Unfortunately there has been little detailed statistical treatment of these numbers or concerted attempts to compile numbers other than this one. --Fastfission 17:47, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Population control ?

Should this page be only about eugenics ? Seems that compulsory sterilization is compulsory sterilization, whatever the original reason, so I see no reason to say that this page is only about the eugenic aspect ...

(Plus, eugenics and population control aren't *that* distant ideas, population control worries about overbreeding, eugenics worries about overbreeding of the unfit) Flammifer 8 July 2005 08:18 (UTC)

Have there been any compulsory sterilization programs for pure population-control reasons? I'm not aware of any. -Willmcw July 8, 2005 08:29 (UTC)

This page has a bit of stuff about india's population control program, which did lead in 1976 to some forced sterilizations (though it seems the extent is disputed, and it's more a matter of occasionnal abuses (some officials were paid depending on the number of people sterilized in their area) than deliberate policy. For China, there's some talk here about coerced abortions and sterilizations still going on today, which I can believe.

But in all cases it looks like more a matter of sterilizing people after they had children rather than to make sure they don't have children. Flammifer 8 July 2005 12:22 (UTC)

I think population control measures and eugenics are pretty different fish in many ways and shouldn't be mixed together indiscriminately -- I think it would be confusing. One possible solution is to rename this page Eugenic sterilization, and then make Compulsory sterilization a disambig that points to this page and the population control page. --Fastfission 8 July 2005 11:03 (UTC)

Quite to the contrary, Fastfission, I am of the opinion that this distinction, although it might be done, is very difficult and unstable. When does "population control" end and "eugenicism" starts? IMO, if sterilization is compulsory, than we're talking about eugenicism, and "population control" can take the guise of eugenicism (the other way around: eugenicism is a form of population control, although we seem both to morally disagree with it). On all these matters in which you seem to be interested, I'm sure you are familiar with Michel Foucault's works on biopolitics, which doubtlessly shed new light on these questions. Lapaz 16:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I propose that a sentence about the ideology behind compulsory sterilization is added: "Compulsory sterilization programs in the first half of the 20th century were inspired totally by Darwin's theory of evolution and the idea of survival of the fittest." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.124.183 (talk) 21:32, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Funny sentence

The first significant country to undertake compulsory sterilization programs for the purpose of eugenics was the United States of America.

And an insignificant country is...?--Pecholobo 18:56, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, yeah, the "significant" should be in front of "compulsory sterilization programs". That is, they were the first country to do so in large numbers. --Fastfission 19:48, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Catholic Church

I added "The Catholic Church has been a notable opponent of eugenics and sterilization programs." This is probably closely related to Chesteron's view, as he was a strong supporter of Catholic values. Are there other groups that should be added to this? How consistent has the church been? I do know that they were vocal opponents of sterilization in Alberta, Canada, in the twentieth century.--Allen

The Church as an organization has to my knowledge been pretty consistently against sterilization of any form, especially compulsory sterilization. There were a few Catholic priests who wrote misc. articles saying that it could be justified under a notion of the "greatest good" for mankind and whatnot, but they were pretty few and far between. I have no idea if the church ever responded to such articles or advocacy directly. I can't think of any other group off of the top of my head which was so across-the-board opposed to eugenics and/or sterilization; almost every political stripe was represented in favoring these things at the time. --Fastfission 02:54, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I guess you're talking here about the US. Concerning Europe, again I'll refer you to Foucault's The Will to knowledge: in this book which doesn't hesisate in "psychoanalysis-bashing", Foucault does credit Freud and psychoanalysis of having been one of the harshest opponents to such programs (ask-me if you want exact page reference). Lapaz 16:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Modified a sentence in the British Columbia section to avoid overusing generalizations. --Dmfallak 15:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Epilepsy

I always found it kinda stupid when the Germans included epileptics in the list. Just goes to show what they knew - unless the epilepsy was part of another, larger syndrome, the stereotypical epilepsy thought of by most people is idiopathic. I'm epileptic, and in my family it's unique in me, and I certainly won't give it to my children. Lady BlahDeBlah 16:43, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Even if you would pass it to your children, I doubt that would be a reason for you not to have any children. It is sure stupid for the Germans to include epileptics, but again, the problem is not so much who was sterilized than that the sterilization was compulsory. This makes it (I know Wikipedia is not a place for moral judgments, but well...) totally morally unacceptable, whatever the case might be, and is, IMO, a crime committed to the human specie as such, as eugenicism reduces human diversity (a diversity which insures us the most chances of survival, and we should'nt forget that many of our best artists and thinkers would have qualified, for a reason or another, for such sterilization program...) Lapaz 16:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Canada

If no one objects, I'm going to port most of the Canada info into its own article (Compulsory sterilization in Canada)? It overwhelms the article a bit as it is, and I think ideally all of the country programs should have their own articles. --Fastfission 20:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey dudes

This article kicks ass. Awesome job! Metrocat 19:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

China?

Isn't China involved in/accused of forced sterilization practices in connection with its one-child policy or something? Should this article address that? --BCSWowbagger 07:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

US: until when???

I read: "a significant number of sterilizations continued in a few states until the early 1960s. The Oregon Board of Eugenics, later renamed the Board of Social Protection, existed until 1983, with the last forcible sterilization occurring in 1981.[5] The U.S. commonwealth Puerto Rico had a sterilization program as well. Some states continued to have sterilization laws on the books for much longer after that, though they were rarely if ever used." Does someone knows:

• which states continued to have sterilization laws?
• "rarely if ever used": how many times exactly?
• until when?
• Puerto Rico: who was affected? Were black or Amerindians more specifically targeted? A question which could also be adressed to the continental US: the article currently states that sterilization was applied to "mentally disabled" people & so-called "criminals" (since robbing chickens seemed to be a felony at the time in Oklahoma). It quickly mentions Native Americans without giving any numbers. Were Afro-Americans also specifically targeted? If you refer to Fujimori's sterilization program in Peru in the 1990s, which specifically targeted Amerindians, and to other similar programs, it is highly probable that these categories were also targeted. It would therefore be nice to have more information on this most important subject.

As the section on the US is concluded, my understanding is that there are still laws today concerning compulsory sterilization (since they were never overturned by the Supreme Court nor repealed in every single state, correct-me if I'm wrong) and that the last forcible sterilization in Oklahoma occured in 1981. The final sentence, "some states... rarely if ever used" seems to imply (in a rather timid way) that their has been other sterilizations after 1981. When was the last one? Last year? More information has to be provided on this, numbers, dates, states... Lapaz 16:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

This is the kind of precisions that it would be great to have for the US part: "Not surprisingly, a statistical study done on sterilization victims in Alberta has yielded data supporting the theory that its sterilization program was biased as well. Minors, because of their legal dependency on adults, were almost always assigned as "mental defectives", thus bypassing the parental consent requirement. Albertan aboriginals and métis, regardless of age, were also targeted. Aboriginal people represented only 2.5% of the general population in Alberta, but made up 6% of the institutionalized population. Towards the end of Alberta's sterilization program, aboriginals and métis made up 25% of the sterilizations performed." Lapaz 16:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't write back further—I meant to but forgot. US sterilizations dropped to very low levels by 1964, though the laws stayed on the books for awhile. The only state still sterilizing in signficant numbers (i.e. more than 100 annually) by 1964 was North Carolina. I am not sure if there is good data on sterilizations post 1960s; there is certainly none in the published literature that I know of (most people do not seem to pay very much attention to the actual numbers, in my own work it has been murder to try and compile accurate statistics of this stuff). I have pretty reliable statistics for sterilized populations in California (from a dissertation a sociologist wrote in the 1980s) which indicate that there was no specifically racial targeting though there was a bias towards sterilizing women over men in the 1930s (though I can't remember if that took into account the fact that there were many more women in the hospitals than men). As for the repeal issue—I imagine some must still be on the books though I don't know if anyone has ever been systematic about it. There are many hurdles to attempting to use such laws today both legal and practical (i.e. many federal programs which fund psychiatric facilities explicitly have anti-sterilization provisions in them and have since the 1970s). There has been at least one case of parents trying to get their Down syndrome child sterilized but being denied because of the associations with these old programs (I think this is discussed in Lee Silver's Remaking Eden). Anyway—from my own experience, there aren't very good numbers on the sterilization progams published; even getting numbers on the biggest program (California) requires consulting about four different sources, some of which are primary sources (the scholarship spends more time on the intellectual aspects of the program rather than the practical ones, IMO). --Fastfission 16:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

incorrect info

the article writes: "....citing that few are likely still living (and would of course have no affected offspring) and ....."

What's "of course" about this? They could have had children before being sterilized (for criminal offences for example). And for that matter they could pay relatives.

My question is who said this, the government involved, or is the "of course" a wikipedia addition?

Ariel. 09:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Compulsory sterilization is still done in the US today. There aren't any laws actually banning it outright.

Actually there are a lot of restrictions put on the sorts of things one needs to do to even get sterilized, much less have someone else sterilized. No laws ban it specifically but there are a boatload of consequences (you lose all Medicaid funding, for example, if your hospital or doctor does anything that looks like it). And if you've ever seen the legal papers you've to sign before getting something done voluntarily, you'd know that in today's judicial culture that any doctor who did such a thing under his own initiative would be in some real hot water... --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The number of sterilisations in Sweden given in the introduction for the page seems to be in conflict with the figure in the Sweden section; 60,000 vs 30,000. Anyone know the actual value?

Latin american countries

Other countries that had notably active sterilization programs include Australia, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Switzerland, Iceland, and some countries in Latin America (including Panama)

Does somebody know exactly which latin american countries have (or had) sterilization programs? I'm mexican and many years ago, I remember hearing on TV about some demands made by women against certain mexican medical institutions claiming that they were sterilized without their consent. But I haven't heard anything about this again. Was it really true or was it just a rumor? does anybody know something about this case? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.175.209.67 (talk) 09:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Canada section "source needed" since July 2006

The entire section on Canada is unsourced, and has been for at least 18 months. Unless there is objection with valid reason, I will remove the entire section, in accordance with Wikipedia's policy on verifiability. Blackworm (talk) 16:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

United States section is unsourced

If you peel away the citations from questionable sources, the entire U.S. section is, essentially, unsourced. A book written by Angela Davis is—to put it mildly—not even a remotely reliable source, in my opinion. One of the sources is a student account in a university domain (which gives it an unfounded appearance of reliability). Several of the references are broken links. This [1] is not a reliable source. The Eugenicsarchive.org site appears reliable, through its claimed connection to the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory. But in light of all these other problematic sources, I have a hard time assuming reliability for the cited offline references, of which there are a couple more. Strikehold (talk) 23:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, an it has nothing about Tessa Savicki sterilized against her will, in 2009.Agre22 (talk) 20:48, 31 January 2010 (UTC)agre22

Anything about sterilization as criminal punishment?

I found this page when I was looking for information on sterilization as punishment for crimes. I wanted to throw out a suggestion - what if the information for each country was divided by purpose? Under each country, you could have sections regarding sterilization for eugenics purposes, sterilization for genocidal purposes (or these two could be merged), and sterilization as punishment for crimes such as rape or child abuse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.11.135.246 (talk) 01:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You end up with a lot of overlap that doesn't organize well if you divide countries by purpose (even within countries there are differences between regional laws). In practice the purposes overlapped—non-castrating sterilization as punishment was often done for eugenic purposes as well (criminality as the genetic issue). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 13:20, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

British Columbia

I have removed the following paragraph which had been challenged (see above discussion):

Canadian sterilization laws were only enacted in Alberta and British Columbia, which could be attributed to their Protestant denominations. Pope Pius XI of the Roman Catholic Church denounced surgical intervention in reproductive matters, making the more Catholic regions (such as Ontario, Quebec, or the Maritime provinces) an inhospitable place to lobby for eugenic sterilization of the disabled. The introduction of progressive, left-leaning governments in Alberta and B.C. also had a hand in strengthening eugenic legislation. Left-leaning parties were eager to embrace new ideas, especially those that held a promise of economic turnaround.

The article is already clear that only two Canadian provinces had this practice. The suggestion that Ontario and the Maritimes were influenced by Catholicism is doubtful and the description of BC and Alberta governments as left-leaning is inaccurate. In any case these theories are unattributed.

The Four Deuces (talk) 07:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)